[DDI-SRG] Data formats: locale and language
Wendy Thomas
wlt at pop.umn.edu
Wed Dec 12 14:20:58 EST 2007
there is a measurementUnit in Variable
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, I-Lin Kuo wrote:
> So if separators are already in PhysicalDataProduct ( I haven't checked to
> make sure), then I think we're covered for number and currency, since
> lyra/euro/marks/dollars unit of currency should be someplace in
> LogicalDataProduct as a unit of measure. This should work, right?, unless we
> have a use case where a variable contains switchable currency units, e.g.
> sometimes pounds, sometimes euros. In that case, the data file has problems
> anyway...
>
> Of the three use cases, that leaves only Date unresolved.
>
> On Dec 12, 2007 11:15 AM, Pascal Heus <pascal.heus at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wendy:
>> I assume this will all take place at the format level in the
>> PhysicalDataProduct. I agree that we may have an language issue when it
>> comes to alphanumeric days or months (like JAN,FEV,MAR,AVR or
>> lundi,mardi,mercredi in French...). Could have a Format = something like
>> DD-MMM-YYYY with an extra xml:lang="FR"?
>> A more formal option would be have a mechanism to declare enumerations
>> for the date type (and possibly currencies). Maybe something like:
>> <DateFormat expression="MMM" type="month" lang="FR">
>> <Jan>JAN</Jan><Feb>FEV</Feb>....
>> </DateFormat>
>> This could be reusable though so could also be stored elsewhere and
>> referenced (in a translation section?).
>> For separators (comma/dot), I think we already have that in the
>> PhysicalDataProduct.
>> later,
>> *P
>>
>>
>> Wendy Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Achim
>>
>> The case you are stating is much clearer now. I think the examples will
>> help clarify what changes are needed and where they are needed.
>>
>> Wendy
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Joachim Wackerow wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I-Lin,
>>
>> As Wendy pointed out the requirement is to describe data in data files,
>> where we have no control over the used representation, see my email on
>> data types/data format from last week.
>>
>> I think it is not a question of going one way (detailed description) or
>> another (or NLS support for generic description). My suggestion is to
>> provide both ways.
>>
>> Regarding the small example there is probably a misunderstanding:10.12.2007 is understood in Germany as a date corresponding to the ISO
>> format 2007-12-10.10.12.2007 can be understood in USA as a date corresponding to the ISO
>> format 2007-10-12, because dates are often written in this order
>> month/day/year.
>>
>> Indeed these are probably very specific cases, but we want to cover also
>> these.
>>
>> Wendy:
>> I'm not sure if things like SUN MON should be described on the logical
>> level. You are right, SUN can be understood as a code, but to be able to
>> make computations with this this code must be converted by an
>> appropriate date format into a numeric representation, which is be done
>> in statistical packages or database systems. The example with a
>> representation for only the week day is probably poor. Imagine a
>> representation year-week-weekday, this can be converted in a numeric
>> date for computation. I'm not sure if the definition at the logical
>> level would be sufficient for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> In general I have the impression that data formats should be describable
>> by their characteristics but also by NLS attributes. This point I didn't
>> mention last week.
>>
>> Which date formats are common in legacy or current data files? Is the
>> use of date/time variables with specific representations common?
>>
>> The examples approach is reasonable. I can try some, but I'm not sure,
>> if this will happen this week.
>>
>> Achim
>>
>> Wendy Thomas wrote:
>>
>>
>> I-Lin
>>
>> I think Achim is refering to describing the data as it is contained in
>> the data file (over which we have no entry control). While the cases he
>> discusses are rare they are a definately problem with both legacy data
>> and with data created by others than large scale organizations
>> (creativity reigns supreme).
>>
>> Some of these seem to be storage related issues, but some like the SUN
>> MON type of information seems more related to the Variable description
>> in logical. The question there is, is Sunday Monday etc a
>> DateTimeRepresentation or a CodeRepresentation? Does this get converted
>> a it goes into a specific storage format irregardless of the users
>> creation of say an alternate variable with coding based on the original
>> variable?
>>
>> I think our use of dates within a DDI instance is covered. The question
>> is are the reqested changes for an expansion or change of the
>> DateTimeRepresentation (making sure something is stamped as a specific
>> representation type rather than a generic category, code, numeric, or
>> text response domain? Or is the request to expand or change the
>> representation of specifics to a physical store?
>>
>> Can we get some walk through examples of where the problem lies?
>>
>> Wendy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, I-Lin Kuo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Joachim,
>>
>> While I understand the intent, I'm not sure that localization covers is
>> sufficient or the right solution
>>
>> First, the ISO date + locale example is not correct. ISO 8601 is locale
>> neutral, and time elements are arranged in descending order. If 12
>> represents the month, then the US example 2007-10-12 is not an ISO date.
>> Secondly, the DateFormatStandardName + locale (=ISO + US) scheme of
>> identifying formats is not expressive enough to cover 10-DEC-2007 and all
>> the other possible variations on date that might occur, unless we greatly
>> expand the set of allowed identifying formats (ORA-US). If we do allow
>> nonstandard formats, do the formats then mean anything? ORA-US to me
>> means
>> Oracle date format, US, but might not mean that to someone else. I would
>> vote for YYYY-MM-DD for date specifications rather than a name.
>>
>> In general, I favor specific markup to specific cases rather than a
>> general
>> approach of localization. For money and currency, I would simply prefer
>> @unitOfCurrency and @decimalDelimiter @thousandsDelimiter to solve the
>> problem rather than a more general localization approach. This may be
>> for no
>> other reason that the country of currency is no longer sufficient to
>> specify
>> whether the currency is in marks or euros.
>>
>> The other reason I don't favor the localization approach is that for the
>> data format concern, I see date, number, and currency as the only issues.
>> The other items on the list athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization are
>> all
>> already covered.
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2007 7:42 AM, Joachim Wackerow <joachim.wackerow at gesis.org> <joachim.wackerow at gesis.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking at the SAS formats I realized that we would need additional
>> information like locale and/or language for specific formats.
>>
>> For example some date formats like a string representation of "day in
>> the week". Assuming strings like "SUN" or "MON" in the data file. This
>> can be represented by a generic format, but additionally a definition of
>> the used language would be necessary.
>>
>> Similar with dates like 10.12.2007 (in Germany in ISO format 2007-12-10,
>> in USA in ISO format 2007-10-12); using a generic format an additional
>> information about the locale would be necessary. The alternative would
>> be to have a specific format definition for each variation. But then the
>> information is lost, that the format is locale dependent.
>>
>> Reading numeric or monetary values with embedded grouping (or thousands)
>> separator and decimal separator is another candidate for localization.
>> We have already explicit elements for decimal and grouping separators.
>> But a alternate way would be to use a generic numeric format with a
>> locale.
>>
>> The locale and language information should stay at the same place where
>> the data format is defined. Both can be seen as attributes of data
>> format.
>>
>> In general I think both ways can make sense: definition of a specific
>> format by a name (for a related type) and definition of a generic format
>> with attributes like decimal separator.
>>
>> SPSS has no NLS support, SAS has NLS support, but also old style fixed
>> definitions, SQL has also both. When both ways of definitions are
>> available, the work of describing the formats seems to be easier. The
>> mapping table and the applications using the mapping table are getting
>> more complicate. But doing formats without NLS seems to be a bad choice.
>>
>> Achim
>> _______________________________________________
>> DDI-SRG mailing listDDI-SRG at icpsr.umich.eduhttp://www.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-srg
>>
>> --
>> I-Lin Kuo
>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389
>> Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375
>> Minnesota Population Center Email: wlt at pop.umn.edu
>> University of Minnesota
>> 50 Willey Hall
>> 225 19th Avenue South
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>>
>>
>> --
>> GESIS - German Social Science Infrastructure Serviceshttp://www.gesis.org/en/
>> _______________________________________________
>> DDI-SRG mailing listDDI-SRG at icpsr.umich.eduhttp://www.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-srg
>>
>> Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389
>> Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375
>> Minnesota Population Center Email: wlt at pop.umn.edu
>> University of Minnesota
>> 50 Willey Hall
>> 225 19th Avenue South
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>> _______________________________________________
>> DDI-SRG mailing listDDI-SRG at icpsr.umich.eduhttp://www.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-srg
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> I-Lin Kuo
>
Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389
Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375
Minnesota Population Center Email: wlt at pop.umn.edu
University of Minnesota
50 Willey Hall
225 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
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