From watteler at za.uni-koeln.de Thu Oct 21 12:37:28 2004 From: watteler at za.uni-koeln.de (Oliver Watteler) Date: Tue Mar 8 09:08:06 2005 Subject: [DDI-CDG] Proposal Message-ID: <4177E5C8.8050602@za.uni-koeln.de> Hi! In mid-September I informed you that Achim Wackerow (ZUMA), Meinhard Moschner (ZA) and I were going to meet in order to discuss the aims of this group. We came up with a draft proposal that has to be seen as starting point for further discussion. I also include a protocol of our meeting which reflects some of thoughts on comparative data. The cooperation with MetaDater is a crucial issue. This proposal is not intended to boost a parallel development on the DDI side, but since MetaDater's originale plan incorporates the aim to feed information to the DDI, we should set up a communication chanel between the two. I will be at the meeting of DDI's Structural Reform Group in Ann Arbor and will give a brief introduction into what MetaDater is heading for, because there are still people in the Alliance who haven't heard of it so far. Since the MetaDater data model is not finished yet, I will not talk about this though. But as I have pointed out to Uwe before, it is of vital interst to some of the DDI Alliance members to have the standard expanded toward the mark up of comparative data and they will not wait for MetaDater. Maybe one way of dealing with the different project speeds is that the Structural Reform Group feeds back their ideas of a data model to MetaDater so that this project can check whether the two models go together well. This will probably be a joint effort with good results. Please go through the two papers and let the group know what you think about them. I suggest that you make proposals for changes of the actual proposal to the group and we will then make them part Mary Vardigan of ICPSR was confident that we can set up aweb-space for the different DDI subgroups. In Ann Arbor I will also get in touch with members of the Complex File Group, as far as any of them will participate in the meeting. Greetings from Cologne, yours Oliver. -- GESIS - Zentralarchiv f?r Empirische Sozialfoschung (ZA) Oliver Watteler, M.A. Dokumentation und Archivierung /Documentation and Archiving Bachemer Str.40 50931 K?ln Tel.:++49-221-47694-76 FAX :++49-221-47694-44 Web :http://www.gesis.org/za -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Meeting CDG Mannheim_eng_20102004.doc Type: application/msword Size: 132608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/pipermail/ddi-cdg/attachments/20041021/5432d168/MeetingCDGMannheim_eng_20102004.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aims CDG_draft_20102004.doc Type: application/msword Size: 34816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/pipermail/ddi-cdg/attachments/20041021/5432d168/AimsCDG_draft_20102004.doc From reto.hadorn at sidos.unine.ch Fri Oct 22 05:16:37 2004 From: reto.hadorn at sidos.unine.ch (Reto Hadorn) Date: Tue Mar 8 09:08:07 2005 Subject: [DDI-CDG] Proposal Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041022103530.01f08688@webmail.unine.ch> Hi Oliver, Hello colleagues, I have read the minutes of your meeting at ZUMA with interest. As you say, there is still a lack of shared concepts for formal description the various kinds of comparative studies the relationships between them. Let me put an accent on 'shared'. Actually, there are a lot more documents around in the MetaDater project, which aim at defining a vocabulary for the various kinds of datasets involved and their relationships. Perhaps you can manage to get more information, working in the data archive managing the project. You can also establish direct contacts with other MetaDater partners working on the issue. There should be some more advanced papers or ideas available than the paper form January 2003. Stabilising a conceptual map for the work done while managing a repeated comparative study is not a simple process; it involves a lot of communication, explanation, criticism and re-elaboration. If the DDI-Alliance subgroup and the staff working on the MetaDater project have a chance to do this now, we avoid later discussions on already rigidified conceptions. Best wishes Reto Hadorn SIDOS Switzerland At 21.10.2004, Oliver Watteler wrote: >Hi! > >In mid-September I informed you that Achim Wackerow (ZUMA), Meinhard >Moschner (ZA) and I were going to meet in order to discuss the aims of >this group. We came up with a draft proposal that has to be seen as >starting point for further discussion. I also include a protocol of our >meeting which reflects some of thoughts on comparative data. > >The cooperation with MetaDater is a crucial issue. This proposal is not >intended to boost a parallel development on the DDI side, but since >MetaDater's originale plan incorporates the aim to feed information to the >DDI, we should set up a communication chanel between the two. I will be at >the meeting of DDI's Structural Reform Group in Ann Arbor and will give a >brief introduction into what MetaDater is heading for, because there are >still people in the Alliance who haven't heard of it so far. Since the >MetaDater data model is not finished yet, I will not talk about this >though. But as I have pointed out to Uwe before, it is of vital interst to >some of the DDI Alliance members to have the standard expanded toward the >mark up of comparative data and they will not wait for MetaDater. Maybe >one way of dealing with the different project speeds is that the >Structural Reform Group feeds back their ideas of a data model to >MetaDater so that this project can check whether the two models go >together well. This will probably be a joint effort with good results. > >Please go through the two papers and let the group know what you think >about them. I suggest that you make proposals for changes of the actual >proposal to the group and we will then make them part >Mary Vardigan of ICPSR was confident that we can set up aweb-space for the >different DDI subgroups. In Ann Arbor I will also get in touch with >members of the Complex File Group, as far as any of them will participate >in the meeting. > >Greetings from Cologne, >yours Oliver. > >-- > >GESIS - Zentralarchiv f?r Empirische Sozialfoschung (ZA) > Oliver Watteler, M.A. > > Dokumentation und Archivierung > /Documentation and Archiving > > Bachemer Str.40 > 50931 K?ln > Tel.:++49-221-47694-76 > FAX :++49-221-47694-44 > Web :http://www.gesis.org/za > > > > > > > >Meeting >CDG Mannheim_eng_20102004.doc > >Aims >CDG_draft_20102004.doc >_______________________________________________ >DDI-CDG mailing list >DDI-CDG@icpsr.umich.edu >http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-cdg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/pipermail/ddi-cdg/attachments/20041022/17cc42b3/attachment.html From watteler at za.uni-koeln.de Fri Oct 22 13:02:46 2004 From: watteler at za.uni-koeln.de (Oliver Watteler) Date: Tue Mar 8 09:08:07 2005 Subject: [DDI-CDG] Proposal In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041022142555.01ed0fe8@webmail.unine.ch> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041022103530.01f08688@webmail.unine.ch> <4178D637.7020809@za.uni-koeln.de> <6.0.3.0.2.20041022142555.01ed0fe8@webmail.unine.ch> Message-ID: <41793D36.3010607@za.uni-koeln.de> Dear all, reading your reactions to my message I think I do have to clarify some things in a brief way. Mentioning MetaDater so prominently in my mail was not intended to signal any priority of this project over the individual input by the group members. The "chair" that I hold over this group does not make me the head or leader or whoever you may call a person that makes decisions. I see myself as a moderator and as such I see three things at stake: - the work of the DDI-Alliance to expand the standard toward comparative studies etc., - the work of MetaDater, which as far as have learned includes a direct input into the Alliance, because it develops a complex metadata model that needs its parallel in the DDI world, and - the interests of all members of this group representing different institutions and archives needing the above mentioned expansion of DDI. Now these three groups overlap, interests overlap and resources a scarce. Thus, my intention was to spur the process of making this expansion happen by bundling up those three groups. I have obviously failed in communicating this aim. Nobody should feel held back in her or his opportunity to participate in this group. The papers I have sent around were a second step after the agreeably slow start in early 2004 to reach some results. I am sorry if anybody had the feeling that decisions were about to be prepared without the necessary transparency. I do not think that it is a good idea to just open internal MetaDater information to this group. This would just mean, as Reto said, commenting on work in progress. I would like to see the three stake holding groups above to reach a common goal that serves all interests. Greetings from Cologne, yours Oliver. P.S.: Please send mails concerning this group to the group's mail address . Reto Hadorn wrote: > > > > Hello Meinhard, > > > Thank you for your prompt answer and for your support for chairing ideas > in the making. > > Yet I disagree on the necessity of having the agreement of the MetaDater > project for any contribution of MetaDater partner to other groups > working on similar issues. As the Swiss delegate to the expert group of > the DDI-Alliance, I should have the possibility of participating at > local meetings appointed by the chair of the Comparative Data subgroup, > to contribute with the ideas I have and with the documents I write. The > validation of documents by the project is another matter, which concerns > only the official documents published under the heading of the project. > I did not wait for MetaDater for starting a reflection on these issues > and there is no reason that the MetaDater filters my possible > contributions to the DDI expert committee. > > Please, don't let me think that coordinating the MetaDater project, > chairing the Comparative data subgroup and having expertise in > integrating datasets is too much power for a single archive. > > Best wishes > > > Reto > > P.S. and a nice holiday in Paris! > > > > > At 22.10.2004, you wrote: > >> Hi and agreed. MetaDater should decide about documents to be made >> public, at least for the CDG-group. >> Greetings >> Meinhard >> Reto Hadorn wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Oliver, Hello colleagues, >>> >>> >>> I have read the minutes of your meeting at ZUMA with interest. >>> >>> As you say, there is still a lack of shared concepts for formal >>> description the various kinds of comparative studies the >>> relationships between them. >>> >>> Let me put an accent on 'shared'. Actually, there are a lot more >>> documents around in the MetaDater project, which aim at defining a >>> vocabulary for the various kinds of datasets involved and their >>> relationships. Perhaps you can manage to get more information, >>> working in the data archive managing the project. You can also >>> establish direct contacts with other MetaDater partners working on >>> the issue. There should be some more advanced papers or ideas >>> available than the paper form January 2003. >>> >>> Stabilising a conceptual map for the work done while managing a >>> repeated comparative study is not a simple process; it involves a lot >>> of communication, explanation, criticism and re-elaboration. If the >>> DDI-Alliance subgroup and the staff working on the MetaDater project >>> have a chance to do this now, we avoid later discussions on already >>> rigidified conceptions. >>> >>> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Reto Hadorn >>> SIDOS >>> Switzerland >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 21.10.2004, Oliver Watteler wrote: >>> >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> In mid-September I informed you that Achim Wackerow (ZUMA), Meinhard >>>> Moschner (ZA) and I were going to meet in order to discuss the aims >>>> of this group. We came up with a draft proposal that has to be seen >>>> as starting point for further discussion. I also include a protocol >>>> of our meeting which reflects some of thoughts on comparative data. >>>> >>>> The cooperation with MetaDater is a crucial issue. This proposal is >>>> not intended to boost a parallel development on the DDI side, but >>>> since MetaDater's originale plan incorporates the aim to feed >>>> information to the DDI, we should set up a communication chanel >>>> between the two. I will be at the meeting of DDI's Structural Reform >>>> Group in Ann Arbor and will give a brief introduction into what >>>> MetaDater is heading for, because there are still people in the >>>> Alliance who haven't heard of it so far. Since the MetaDater data >>>> model is not finished yet, I will not talk about this though. But as >>>> I have pointed out to Uwe before, it is of vital interst to some of >>>> the DDI Alliance members to have the standard expanded toward the >>>> mark up of comparative data and they will not wait for MetaDater. >>>> Maybe one way of dealing with the different project speeds is that >>>> the Structural Reform Group feeds back their ideas of a data model >>>> to MetaDater so that this project can check whether the two models >>>> go together well. This will probably be a joint effort with good >>>> results. >>>> >>>> Please go through the two papers and let the group know what you >>>> think about them. I suggest that you make proposals for changes of >>>> the actual proposal to the group and we will then make them part >>>> Mary Vardigan of ICPSR was confident that we can set up aweb-space >>>> for the different DDI subgroups. In Ann Arbor I will also get in >>>> touch with members of the Complex File Group, as far as any of them >>>> will participate in the meeting. >>>> >>>> Greetings from Cologne, >>>> yours Oliver. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> GESIS - Zentralarchiv f?r Empirische Sozialfoschung (ZA) >>>> Oliver Watteler, M.A. >>>> >>>> Dokumentation und Archivierung >>>> /Documentation and Archiving >>>> >>>> Bachemer Str.40 >>>> 50931 K?ln >>>> Tel.:++49-221-47694-76 >>>> FAX :++49-221-47694-44 >>>> Web :http://www.gesis.org/za >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Meeting CDG Mannheim_eng_20102004.doc >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Aims CDG_draft_20102004.doc >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> DDI-CDG mailing list >>>> DDI-CDG@icpsr.umich.edu >>>> http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-cdg >>> >>> -- GESIS - Zentralarchiv f?r Empirische Sozialfoschung (ZA) Oliver Watteler, M.A. Dokumentation und Archivierung /Documentation and Archiving Bachemer Str.40 50931 K?ln Tel.:++49-221-47694-76 FAX :++49-221-47694-44 Web :http://www.gesis.org/za